Even ignoring the ideological reasons to not want facebook integration: There are only so many hours in the day and so many dollars in the donation bucket. If an open source project is dedicating a disproportionate percentage of that on a feature that a significant part of the community actively do not want: That is exactly WHY you fork a project.

And once we consider the ideological and safety related reasons to not want facebook and giant corporate interests involved?

I have a lot of issue with the people who decide the answer is harassment and hate. But if enough development and organizational energy want to fork this? removedin’ A.

So… exactly what we already have except instead of c/linux@lemmy.world it is c/linux@lemmy.worldANDlemmy.zip?

Again, how does that work if c/linux is “the same” on every instance?

Will comments and posts exist on the world view of c/linux but not the zip view? At which point… what are we actually getting over the status quo? Because you can bet that anyone who has hexbear unblocked would see two different versions of every single thread because nobody else would see the hexbear posted thread.

There have been a number of articles (pop and scholarly) about malicious code being social engineered into codebases over the past few years. And, in this case, the malice is “expected” from one of the long time developers to begin with.

Also: We got INCREDIBLY lucky that Andres Freund detected it when he did. Because that was hitting right around the time a lot of the major distros were preparing their major releases (Fedora basically escaped by the skin of their teeth).

Malicious manipulation of open source projects has always been a concern. And the vast majority of us do the equivalent of signing whatever form we are given because “oh it just looks like a standard contract”.

What you are describing is basically Mastodon (or, if you like porn and hatespeech, twitter… non-consensual porn because a lot of Mastodon instances are REALLY horny).

The moment you aggregate communities across instances you remove the ability to moderate them. Because maybe a hexbear mod wants to remove all mention of the Uyghur people, an ml mod wants to remove all mention of genocide against them, and a zip mod wants to remove all the comments about why genocide is good in a thread about god damned Bluey.

Do they all get to delete everything across every instance? Do you start having different views of the same community depending on your home instance?

All moderator elections would do is let chuds stack the ballot. Look up removed like the sad puppies debacle.

The answer is that a site needs to decide what its rules are and then moderators need to enforce those rules, regardless of how the community feels. Which, ironically, is what ml is doing (even if they don’t publicize those rules). And if the community dislikes the rules, you disassociate with them.

The issue with the fediverse is that you need to defederate or else you are tacitly approving of their bullremoved.

You… should probably pay more attention to the news.

It is very possible for bad actors to inject malicious code into an open source project. And it is very probable for people to not notice because the vast majority of developers never read a single line of the open source code they claim to value so much.

“Any bad code will be detected by the armies of people who do rigorous code analysis of every single pull request” was always nonsense.

We have decades of proof of chuds brigading and building up hate speech hellfests in these “just let capitalism decide” laissez-faire models.

Moderation free environments just turn places into kiwi farms.

Not off the top of my head. It was one of the various “tech” youtubers who will do everything ranging from “here is how to set up proxmox” to “I tried five twitter alternatives for a week” videos.

World grew MASSIVELY around the time of the reddit mod strike.

In the time since? A lot of those communities are basically full of people who can’t stop talking about their ex while constantly re-posting everything they see there. And… the lemmy world admins made a few controversial decisions and their method of removing problem/“problem” users made a lot of us uncomfortable. Piss off an admin and your entire comment history is wiped in an instant and your ban reason is unverifiable.

Whereas ml already had communities that existed to talk about the topic of the community rather than what reddit was talking about.

The hexbears realized that EVERYONE blocks them. One particularly humorous youtube even did a “One of the great things about lemmy is that you can block particularly problematic communities. Let’s use hexbear as an example. Please follow along” gag to show how to block an entire instance at the user level.

Since ml was generally sympathetic to tankies, if not full of the idiots, the hexbears basically just joined that en masse.

But yeah. Caught a ban for racism/xenophobia because I questioned what positive benefit accelerationism would have for the Palestinian people. Reminded me way too much of attempting to interact with hexbear so I used that as an excuse to just start blocking any .ml community that I see in my feed. Not QUITE at the point of blocking the whole instance but… I expect to be there by the end of the month.

The “vibe” doesn’t really matter. You are getting paid to do a job, you are gonna do it. You can’t refuse to write documents because you have to use Word instead of Google Docs or whatever.

No, it really is the training. Because the most obnoxious thing in the work force is an old white guy. They can’t outright say “no”. But they will do everything in their power to talk about how EVERYTHING is a blocker and they can’t get any work done because nobody wanted to teach them something. Or nobody was able to answer the questions that they refuse to ask. And so forth.

Having a database of training videos or even an outsourced consultant goes a long way toward “Hey Jon? Nobody gives a removed. Do your job”. Whereas having to link to just a document or explain something yourself is how they will actively refuse to ever retain any information.

Things get weird as corporations increasingly have power comparable to nation states.

But, generally, I would rather a megacorporation than a government. Because megacorps are at least “smart enough” to pretend they aren’t trying to take over the world. Whereas governments have a tendency to justify a lot of horrible removed for righteous reasons.

But, in a perfect world? I would rather a wide range of different donors and backers but mostly clustering around maybe fortune 500 companies instead of fortune 10?

My buddies and I have worked at companies that went through similar transitions and reversions.

The issue is not the cost or even the ideology. It is the training and support. There are a LOT of really good training resources for MS Office and, at least for millennials, outright education in k-12. So, by switching to libre office or anything similar, you are suddenly putting a large burden on yourself and random enthusiast youtubers who will start advertising nordvpn partway through explaining what a pivot table is. Because the vast majority of people don’t know how to google “how to edit the footer for slides in Libre Office”

And that RAPIDLY adds up to being a lot more expensive than even the full priced licenses from MS. your more technically competent staff suddenly have very large support burdens because “Oh, I just have a quick question” and that increases their burnout.

That said, it is going to be really interesting in the next 5-10 years (… assuming the world doesn’t end in a series of thermonuclear explosions first) since gen-z are very much brought up on Google Docs and the like. So even MS Office will have a significant training overhead for new hires.

At one of my other jobs we had to migrate a codebase from SVN to Git. it… was incredibly overdue and it was making for a greater burden on new hires who had to learn an antiquated toolset to contribute. But it was a genuine concern because most of the existing developers who understood “where the bodies were buried” had already “suffered through giving up on CVS for no good reason”. And we genuinely had to acknowledge that we would lose staff “on both sides” and, while I am not proud to admit it, more or less set up a few underperforming early career staff to be sacrificial lambs. Making it a point to let Old removed #5 know that the guy who was struggling to understanding how to write performant kernels was available to work through how to write a commit message. That way the rock stars who we were dependent on would not put in their notice.

And having a government as a significant backer for an open source project is a great recipe for conflicts of interest and general trust erosion.

Exactly

We go through cycles of this. People get it in their head that “linux is finally ready for mainstrream desktop usage”. A lot of people “make the change” and then assess it for themselves.

But there is always this crowd of evangelists that insist on either being ridiculously pedantic or downplaying some of the headaches. And this is a perfect example of… both?

On the Windows side? Most people will never notice that. I think MS have reached the point where they don’t even give users a choice after N weeks? You just go down in the middle of watching a naughty video and come up to Cortana turning on all the spyware and telling you to use Edge already.

On “Linux”? It is almost (?) always a series of special commands you provide your package manager and/or upgrade app where it feels like someone is trying to warn you at every step of the way that you WILL destroy your computer. And… it might. I am still not convinced that something didn’t get borked with Fedora and plasma and I probably need to just set aside an hour or two to reformat.

The end result is largely the same (depending on what version and what distro). But it very much goes beyond “numbers are scary” and into “But you said I shouldn’t run random commands I find on the internet with the word ‘sudo’ in them. And now I should?” territory.

Personally? I think this is actually an excellent selling point. I hate that Windows does whatever the hell it wants these days. I like that I am making a conscious effort to update my OS. And, while I dislike them in practice, I think “immutable OSes” are the way to make this palatable for the masses.

There is no one solution that handles everything (or else everyone would just do that). It is always about a mixture of multiple methods.

Is it even legal?

This is the internet. Someone will always claim it is illegal in “Europe”. Nobody will care enough to verify one way or the other. And, regardless of whether it is or is not, companies don’t care because most of those regulations are very toothless either due to bureaucratic inertia or just not giving a removed.

The fact of the matter is that this is a very common model used by a range of services and it is not going to get challenged any time soon.

It is still a monetary investment which is a major deterrent to bad faith accounts. This is why so many live games have a “you need to spend 1 dollar to get into the good queue” model. removed like Escape from Tarkov where people buy accounts en masse are very much the exception.

But also? The issue is, like with mots things, lower income users. A lot of the cheaper/more affordable “pay as you go” phone plans won’t support the SMS authentication services that these models depend on. Which is why I referenced Overwatch 2 since that was actually a really “good” example of the reasons this is not a good model.

Which means you likely weren’t invested in engaging in a meaningful manner. That is especially important for filing a bug report on an open source project.

And I guess I just don’t view a phone number as having much value from a privacy standpoint. Basically every number is compromised to the point that it is dependent on your phone/service provider to block spam. One more site having my phone number doesn’t really bother me if it is a site I want to “engage” with.

Also: Never underestimate how much data is already out there just based on what pages you load. Privacy is long since dead and people do not understand how easy it is to cross reference to realize that “Jimmy in The Netherlands” is actually “Jim Stark at 101 Fake Street in Baltimore Maryland whose sister is Susie Clark with facebook username sclark_420”

And Github is Microsoft who need those capabilities for basically every other website they sell.

Whereas gitlab is REALLY good software with… a website nobody ever really asked for but that still needs to exist to sell people that software.

This comes up with a lot of services. I think everyone lost their god damned minds when overwatch added phone verification?

Like, I don’t like it. But I have friends who ahve had to deal with harassment campaigns against their products (or persons) and the like and get why you would do what, on the surface, is a pretty trivial ask as a way to remove sock puppets.