Until there’s a liberal space for men, it’s going to cause them to flock to lying conservatives. There, they will be indoctrinated by weird, stupid conservative bullremoved that has nothing to do with any of this.
The left is the only place that is safe to open up as a man.
The right is only safe if you fit a very specific definition of manliness, one that is unrealistic. However that illusion sends millions of the gullible and impressionable chasing after an unobtainable standard.
On the far-right you’ll get punched if you like making caramel and baking cakes. The close right just calls you a slur instead.
There are few things more alienating to the wide range of male expression than the right wing.
I grew up as a conservative and was never accepted. Opening up, being emotionally vulnerable, expressing “feminine” (ie non traditional) interests: every time it lost me any sort of male friendship. I was excluded, mocked and called homophobic slurs.
I’m a cisgender straight white man but because I was a square peg to their traditional round hole I was an outcast.
The right is the cause of male depression and loneliness. It enforces the gender norms that make men feel they have to be a rock, provide for family, die for their country, shut up about their feelings.
The only safe place for men to open up is on the left.
Gangs are inclusive and welcoming even if they haze you and commit crimes. People who feel left out gravitate toward unconventional solutions to conventional problems.
The right is the cause of male depression and loneliness
I feel you, but you should probably say “The right is the cause of MY depression and loneliness”. Different men have different experiences, and suffering doesn’t depend on whatever people perceive as “left” or “right”.
I grant that my statement wasn’t particularly nuanced, but I firmly believe it is generally accurate for the overwhelming majority of the male population.
The overwhelming majority of all the right-wing men I’ve ever met have been a thousand times more miserable, angry, and bottled up than their left counterparts. The right wing inherently fosters that kind of existence with its rigidity, judgment, paranoia, and aggression.
Starting by removing the association between masculinity and being a bigot by changing male social behavior seems to be the logical first step. The change absolutely has to come from within. Starting by not tolerating it when your buddies say bigoted removed seems insignificant but is a huge step in the positive direction, and every small change counts.
So you don’t think there are any issues with how men are treated on the left?
As progressive as the left can be, men have been left behind and are still often expected to ‘just be a man’, while dealing with double standards and sometimes being treated like they’re inherently bad.
Edit: Copying what vzq has said to me for visibility, as this is the exact problem. Do I sound like the angry toddler in this discussion?
“I want to be treated fairly and based on how I act, and yet I don’t get that.”
You are being treated based on how act. You act like a spoiled toddler that thinks he’s owed some consideration by strangers.
I believe these issues exist in some places in the world like the usa.
Personally as a cis man i dont experience these issues at all. I am more radical left leaning then my sisters.
The right just appear like some intolerant macho cult. They are the last people i would feel safe.
It has to be set though I recognize many fellow men do exhibit this weird macho psychology as well as laziness and illusion that they somehow know me or what i want. I never consider that to have political grounds.
If i have a choice to interact with either sex i am Biased to chose the women because i feel like there actually perceive and speak to me as individual rather then pretending i am their best friend cardboard cutout.
In my experience women are more honest as sales people and more helpfull as a frontdesk clerk. This is bias and exceptions exist. I myself am an exceptions. Statistical perception though…
I haven’t heard another guy talk about other dudes assuming you are just like them/same politics etc, but its something I’ve experienced a lot. I often have to break the news I’m not a safe space for whatever bs they are spewing.
Again, just disregarding how men feel, where does that get us?
I absolutely do not act in the way that men are accused of, but blanket statements about “MeN BaD” are so frequent and widely accepted, and it’s just ignored or even praised.
Can you give a more precise example? I hope you do not mean individuals who write stuff online. In what way do left oriented organisations treat all men like they are bad?
Okay, you’re obviously just looking for an argument at this point.
I’m not your enemy, I just ask that you reflect on what I’ve said. You don’t have to, but being open minded and showing compassion are supposedly the cornerstone of the left.
Millions of liberal men can man just fine every day just out in public.
That is true, absolutely. And one must not diminish the situation of women under the patriarchy by any means.
Unfortunately, the patriarchy damages all of us in different ways. That does not contradict feminism but, in my estimation, completes the view of the patriarchy, it’s effects, and how we perpetuate it generation after generation. I think if we wish to be anti-sexist and pro-feminist and ever hope to abolish the patriarchy, we must understand it as fully as possible.
If you care to explore the topic further, “The Will to Change” by Bell Hooks might be worth a read.
Liberal, as in, believing in liberty. Freedom. How many mens spaces do you know of, where a man is completely free to open up, with full liberty and freedom from immediate consequences, about feelings they may have inside of them?
There’s actually not a lot. It’s a reflection of masculine indoctrination, where men in many places are made to feel like they almost need to be ready to become a soldier at any moment. Guarded, careful. It’s no good, unless your country is actually at war.
Are you implying liberal spaces deal with more toxic masculinity? Because that’s sounds more like conservative spaces to me. In my experience men are much more welcome to be vulnerable and talk about their feelings in liberal spaces. If you can’t find liberal spaces “where a man is completely free to open up, with full liberty and freedom from immediate consequences” I can’t help but wonder if perhaps you and your options are the intolerant ones. Tolerance can not support intolerance and liberal spaces can and should reject intolerance.
No, it is specifically illiberal spaces that encourage more toxic masculinity, in a bit of a cycle. While the space itself may be extremely liberal and rules-free, a local culture can take over and enforce those same toxic norms in place of any set of rules. And frequently does. While the space may be ostensibly liberal, in effect it is not, due to the behavior of its community.
This is the majority of mens spaces, unfortunately. Online anyway.
This is going to be probably my single biggest cultural gripe with Lemmy. Lemmy (and leftist instances) as a leftist space is fine with ostracising men’s rights because feminists maliciously club it with redpillers/incels. I have been warned, ostracised, handed over multiple temp bans for “misogyny” which was merely criticising the hypocrisy of women and feminists. I never hated women, never dumped on women’s rights, always try to talk about equal treatment of men just like women and so on. And this made me conclude only one thing – to ignore and desert internet leftist social culture, if they are going to pile on all men. Not gonna get bluepilled in the name of avoiding redpill.
I read through some of your comment history and found this comment chain which I think is what you’re referring to here.
Women love psychological manipulation and think they are the hot removed, until they start going “good guy”-less by their 30s and the “beauty” starts to subside. Too much high school teen garbage, and most have not mentally grown out of it.
Even if you say you don’t hate women, it’s pretty clear you don’t like a certain kind of women, and don’t make much of a distinction between them and everyone else.
True masculinity (said by certain kind of people to be toxic) is about resilience, emotional control, inner strength, confidence and the ability to withstand life’s hardships without resorting to insecurity (dissing manhood) or abusive behaviours (psychological manipulation).
We are getting tired of hearing we are toxic, disposable and physical tools for others. And I must tell you this – the devolving and rotting feminist movement is exactly what is causing the explosion of the other extreme end, redpillers. A lot of people are starting to disapprove of these extremes.
Men are not “toxic” because they are not as emotionally charged or like vulnerability. Men are simply hardwired to be more resilient, calm, less hysterical, and protect their emotional sanctity the exact way women protect their physical sanctity.
Wouldn’t it be the truly masculine thing to do if you just didn’t take all of the accusations of toxic masculinity to heart? Shouldn’t be be using your calm, resilient, less hysterical intellect to try to understand just why so many people seem to have a problem with what you’re saying or how you’re saying it? Don’t you want to have the ability to withstand life’s hardships without resorting to insecurity (worrying about perceived threats to men’s rights) or abusive behaviours (assigning traits to a group for the actions of individuals)? I don’t want to imply men aren’t allowed to complain or have problems, but it seems you’re either betraying your ideals for what a man should be, or are trying to hold all men to an unrealistic standard.
Lemmy (and leftist instances) as a leftist space is fine with ostracizing men’s rights because feminists maliciously club it with redpillers/incels.
As far as I can tell, this paragraph is about all the actual men’s rights issues you’re talking about:
All I have seen is double standards whenever men’s issues need to be talked about versus women’s issues. Mental health issues, women pedophiles/predators versus men pedophiles/predators, or male SA versus female SA, military recruitments, physical risk jobs like ones at construction sites, women publicly allowed to get away with sexual harassment or roadside flirting, or men being called creeps for being nice to children but women are “inclusive” and never creepy, et al. And any debate is intentionally and dishonestly avoided by women and feminists on these things by clustering men’s rights with redpill manosphere movement.
which is mostly about double standards, unless you just really want to interact with children, flirt with women in public, and not feel pressured to take certain jobs. Unless your idea of a leftist is someone like Bill Maher, I’m pretty sure most leftists would be pro-(mental) healthcare, pro- equality under the law, pro-union/workplace safety, anti-pedophilia, and generally anti-war.
I never delete my comments and let the world see, so that was smart. Appreciated.
Wouldn’t it be the truly masculine thing to do if you just didn’t take all of the accusations of toxic masculinity to heart?
Don’t you want to have the ability to withstand life’s hardships without resorting to insecurity (worrying about perceived threats to men’s rights) or abusive behaviours (assigning traits to a group for the actions of individuals)?
No, masculinity being about resilience does not mean you just sit silently while people run towards you with axe and hammer. You can absolutely defend yourself and when cornered, attack when necessary. Masculine resilience does not mean you become this statue that remains so even if birds come and poop in the mouth. Eventually you will grab one bird by the neck.
Masculinity is not toxic. Behaviours are toxic, and they are not attached to masculinity exclusively. Femininity also has toxic behaviours if masculinity does. This is illogical western feminist propaganda and absolutely serves to accomplish the unspoken goal of getting “revenge” on men. Women have always been privileged in different ways than men have. It just so happens men focused on money (key form of capital) and ended up as being more advantageous. Men also have biological advantages that favour them over women.
There are agendas being pushed on the left, exactly in similar ways to the incel/redpill agendas, and I find all of them incredibly delusional and harmful to society. I love a lot of Jubilee’s Middle Ground debates on issues related to this topic, which pit leftists, centrist liberals and conservatives against each other.
My commentary is a little rough, little crude, but the meaning can be derived just fine if the context of current society is complemented. People (not you) can find semantic faults but those are not intended, and I think it can be seen I do not have ill intentions of pushing redpill bullremoved onto people. I was even being labelled (Jordan) Petersonian by some person despite insisting I have never pushed his conservative talking points or wanted to.
I have never said this, but I am
a
REDACTED
and leftists disgust me with their treatment of men, just as much as toxic redpillers and rightwingers do. I have encountered radical feminists wanting genocide of men, men being called male (animal implication), hand signs for dick size, feminists saying “all men bad/die” and “men are not our responsibility”, feminists faking boys locker room chats to gain online attention and harass men, and so on, so I have zero faith in anyone, leftists or rightists. And since reactionary leftists/rightists remain terminally online and amplify their bullremoved, its best to go Stoic.
No, masculinity being about resilience does not mean you just sit silently while people run towards you with axe and hammer. You can absolutely defend yourself and when cornered, attack when necessary. Masculine resilience does not mean you become this statue that remains so even if birds come and poop in the mouth. Eventually you will grab one bird by the neck.
Grabbing the bird by the neck would probably count as an abusive behavior, the second half of your definition of masculinity. You’re very quick to compare whatever treatment you’ve received (I haven’t really seen anything) to physical violence, which probably feeds into why a lot of people you interact with come off as so hostile to you and your beliefs.
Women have always been privileged in different ways than men have. It just so happens men focused on money (key form of capital) and ended up as being more advantageous. Men also have biological advantages that favour them over women.
It wasn’t all that long ago that women gained the right to vote, so it should be pretty obvious that women had fewer privileges than men just 100 years ago. Time marches on, and things are more equal now, but there’s still a measurable difference in pay by gender just for an example.
I was even being labelled (Jordan) Petersonian by some person despite insisting I have never pushed his conservative talking points or wanted to.
I try not to listen to Jordan Peterson, but if you’re saying things in line with his general philosophy, it doesn’t really matter whether or not you want to be pushing his talking points or if you even know you’re doing it. I can’t say for sure you are, but I would generally associate this kind of “women are actually more privileged then men” talk as at least similar.
I have encountered radical feminists wanting genocide of men, men being called male (animal implication), hand signs for dick size, feminists saying “all men bad/die” and “men are not our responsibility”, feminists faking boys locker room chats to gain online attention and harass men, and so on, so I have zero faith in anyone, leftists or rightists.
You meet people that say dumb and hurtful things all the time. My own grandfather once told me that immigrants dying while trying to cross the border was a good thing because it would send a message to others that they aren’t welcome and they shouldn’t try to come. But that doesn’t mean you always need to take them seriously and apply the absolute worst things you’ve heard to a larger group of (mostly unrelated) people. But also, are these “locker room chats” the harmless kind, or the fantasizing/reminiscing about sexual assault kind?
So, spaces that encourage toxic masculinity do exist, and they are fully aware of their ruination. See: 4chan.org.
edit: I see some of the confusion here, since 4chan is seemingly liberal, due to having no formal rules. However, that is an illusion. A man is not actually free to say anything they like without consequences there. It’s just that the norms will be enforced by the community, instead of any kind of authority. This is not actual liberty and freedom, simply indoctrination cloaked in an illusion of freedom.
Real freedom would allow a man to express something like sympathy, or being against gamergate, and express that opinion in peace. The reality of such spaces does not actually permit this.
It seems liberal and free, but in effect it is not. This is similar to how Trump seems to be strong sometimes, but in reality is weak and cowardly. Toxic masculinity loves its illusions.
Toxic masculinity does not exist. If it does, toxic femininity also exists and is just as abundant. If you cannot acknowledge this, you have no right to badmouth masculinity as toxic.
I feel you man, I know people that grew up in environments like that, and if you are not temperamentally suited for them they will chew you up.
I found it got a lot better when I moved out on my own and could choose who I spent time and who I did not. But not everyone can do that when they need the most.
The only places I have been close to that are “toxic” male places. All boys clubs, drinking clubs, rugby clubs.
But women see them as toxic and label then like that. But if you talk to them you get more toxic than from these clubs they aren’t a part of that tell you how horrible they are.
So, I’m not a woman, nor am I overly feminine, and I still call out toxic bullremoved when I see it. If you want to say the problem is women/feminists though, fine whatever, if we cleaned up our own removed first, we might be able to make that stick. But when we’re bastards and they’re bitches, and we complain, we’re kinda the removeded up ones, y’know? Since we were supposed to be strong in the first place.
Unless you just think life is removed and everyone should get used to it. Then, just move to Russia or something, for everyone’s sake.
Sure. Go over into 4chan and try any behavior they would describe as “white knighting” or “simping”. You will rapidly experience some social consequences intended to dissuade that behavior.
Experiencing social consequences for saying something people disagree with is not infringing on your freedom. Unless they band together and try to go further than simply not liking what you have to say, how is that stopping men from saying their opinion on 4chan?
Independently, I wouldn’t call 4chan a liberal place. As far as I know, 4chan started and participated in activities in the past that go far beyond simply not liking an opinion. They doxxed, harassed and threatened people, among other things. And with support from many people on that platform.
Liberal in the traditional sense, as in, believing in liberty, I’m being technical. Not meaning “leftist” the way the word has been rebranded by right-leaners. So, their adoption of “no rules” is ultra-liberal, or libertarian perhaps.
And all social consequences are social. Drawing a distinction between legal and social is arbitrary. Suffering is suffering, and employing it to control dissenting voices is fundamentally illiberal. If you can prevent certain messages from appearing on your platform, you have successfully executed a form of control.
Thus, their ultra-liberty is an illusion. It’s not real.
Liberal narratives paint men as aggressive rapists at worst, and toxic manipulative sociopath at best. Liberal narratives onstantly evoke “tHe pATriArcHy” and “tOxic mAsCuLinity” hiding misandry behind pseudointellectualism
Pushes in glasses “uuum ackshually that’s not what it means”
Yeah no removed, tell that to the people on social media where the majority of popular discord takes place. And pretending that the meaning of the two isn’t obfuscated is disingenuous. At the end of the day it’s all antipositivists theory garbage that reads more like a political treatise than academic study.
Exactly. Feminist terminology like “toxic masculinity” and “patriarchy” has been very carefully chosen to be misandrist enough to result in the intended widespread popular demonization of men that we’ve seen over the past few decades, while also giving feminists enough deniability to gaslight with “that’s not what the terms ackchually mean though”.
This is the pseudointellectualism I’m talking about. “You don’t actually understand what it ACTUALLY means” while the meanings are clearly obfuscated for the layperson.
Brosef, the term “patriarchy” itself is (and has always been) intentionally misleading and inherently misandrist, and has played a huge role in the modern demonization of men as a result. The “academic definition” of the term is irrelevant, as the (fully intended) real world negative consequences of the term for men in the cultural zeitgeist have been systemic and pervasive, as we can see all over this thread.
Until there’s a liberal space for men, it’s going to cause them to flock to lying conservatives.
I mean, they/we also could create these spaces for us, much in the same way women did (and many other groups). And of course it’s easier to fall for reactionary groups when liberal groups are less visible, but it’s still a decision to follow their bullremoved.
We had these spaces, they were accused of sexism, and forced to open up to everyone, where the female spaces stayed all female. Boyscouts and Girlscouts comes to mind as an example.
The issue is that these spaces are often prime trolling grounds, and you end up having the same discussions over and over until the honest posters move on and only trolls are left.
It would be great if there was mens clubs to just hang out, drink, talk, play games things like that. In fact there was and they were HUGE but men aren’t allowed them now.
It would be great if boys could have that. Almost like a girls scouts but for boys.
As soon as men try to organize and speak out we get called sexist. If men wanted to start a men only club like women are allowed they would be forced to let women in. Just look at the boy scouts (ignoring the pedophiles) they were forced to allow girls but the girl scouts don’t have to allow boys. Males can’t have anything male only.
As soon as men try to organize and speak out we get called sexist.
That’s simply not true. We have at least one counselling centre in our city that is “boys/young men only” and several “men only” self help groups. I’ve never heard them being called sexist, on the contrary people generally agree that this is a good thing and we need more of this. And they are certainly not forced to include other genders.
There are obviously not enough initiatives like these. But a blanket statement like yours is false and if you make the claim that men are regularly getting called out as sexist for forming liberal safe spaces you should provide some sources (I’m not denying that it happens, it’s just not something I’ve experienced).
Just look at the boy scouts (ignoring the pedophiles)
The goal of boy scouts wasn’t to provide a safe space to explore gender identity or emotions or anything like that. There was no reason to exclude other genders.
What are you trying to say? I don’t know that much about Scouting in the U.S. At least in Germany we didn’t have this gender divide in scouting, but as GSUSA were founded after the BSA I suspect that their goal was to provide scouting for girls because they couldn’t join BSA.
The other guy said men can’t have man-only spaces, referring to Boy Scouts in contrast to Girl Scouts, and you said that Boy Scouts isn’t supposed to be a safe space to explore gender identity or emotions. If Girl Scouts isn’t that kind of thing either, then that sounds like you think men only get to have that kind of man-only space, while women can have whatever.
As a man, if the only man-only spaces available were about gender identity or emotions, I’d probably go to neither. The former because I’m fully comfortable as a man (and the use of the term “gender identity” there implies it’s more for trans people,) and the latter because I don’t have significant issues with my emotions. Frankly, I don’t really mind that most of the clubs and events that interest me are co-ed, but if there was a recurring women-only Minecraft party or something and there was never one for men, I’d be upset about that.
I was saying we could create the missing liberal spaces ourselves. ThePantser said we couldn’t because we’re being called out as sexist when we do that. The only example for that being “boy scouts” which I suppose means BSA, an organization with massive sexual abuse and bullying problems (according to Wikipedia). No idea how they are supposed to be “liberal”.
Whether the girl scouts accept other genders or not has no relevance for that argument. And if it would be fair for them to do that is a completely different discussion because girls are hit by sexism in a completely different way than boys.
the use of the term “gender identity” there implies it’s more for trans people
No, it doesn’t.
if there was a recurring women-only Minecraft party or something and there was never one for men, I’d be upset about that.
And again you are completely ignoring any arguments about why these spaces might make sense.
Women get told they need there own spaces for mental health, women’s issues, to have women’s chat.
Men aren’t allowed those things. They are told they never open up, they are toxic they shouldn’t be acting x,y,z and they should be more like girls.
What you are saying is when all thr fallout occurs then they get help. You are fixing a problem when their could be a solution before it becomes a problem.
Men underperform in things like education and work.
Who gets all the help? Women.
There is so much toxic feminism that doesn’t get attention. A male only shelter got shut down by me because the feminists protested so much until it got shut down.
Surely this is intersectional though right? Not all men are the same or have the same experience of political issues. I can see how straight white cis men might feel like these spaces aren’t for them. But queer men might feel differently about this. Black men also.
Also if you feel like existing spaces aren’t for you, then free to create your own spaces. There’s nothing holding you back.
Counterpoint - men need to be less hung up on gender.
There’s plenty of liberal spaces for people even if not exclusively for men.
As a guy, I don’t need a sign outside saying “Open for men” to know I can go into a store, just “Open” suffices.
While there are aspects of my life that are informed by my biology and its social construct, it’s one of the least defining aspects of who I am as a person. I don’t need it specially recognized.
I’d much rather live in a world where there’s spaces for “people who like RPGs and fantasy” or “people who like tech” over “people who identify as male.” I have a ton in common with the former two, irrespective of gender identities, and very little in common with the latter other than fairly superficial things.
“Hey, pee standing up? Me too! We have so much in common we should be friends. Oh, you want to meet up at the bar to watch the latest hockey game? Yeah, that sounds…fun…”
The very idea of a “liberal space for men” is antithetical to my sense of liberalism. We should be liberated from arbitrary notions of identity, not reinforced into them.
Until there’s a liberal space for men, it’s going to cause them to flock to lying conservatives. There, they will be indoctrinated by weird, stupid conservative bullremoved that has nothing to do with any of this.
The left is the only place that is safe to open up as a man.
The right is only safe if you fit a very specific definition of manliness, one that is unrealistic. However that illusion sends millions of the gullible and impressionable chasing after an unobtainable standard.
On the far-right you’ll get punched if you like making caramel and baking cakes. The close right just calls you a slur instead.
There are few things more alienating to the wide range of male expression than the right wing.
I grew up as a conservative and was never accepted. Opening up, being emotionally vulnerable, expressing “feminine” (ie non traditional) interests: every time it lost me any sort of male friendship. I was excluded, mocked and called homophobic slurs.
I’m a cisgender straight white man but because I was a square peg to their traditional round hole I was an outcast.
The right is the cause of male depression and loneliness. It enforces the gender norms that make men feel they have to be a rock, provide for family, die for their country, shut up about their feelings.
The only safe place for men to open up is on the left.
Gangs are inclusive and welcoming even if they haze you and commit crimes. People who feel left out gravitate toward unconventional solutions to conventional problems.
I feel you, but you should probably say “The right is the cause of MY depression and loneliness”. Different men have different experiences, and suffering doesn’t depend on whatever people perceive as “left” or “right”.
I grant that my statement wasn’t particularly nuanced, but I firmly believe it is generally accurate for the overwhelming majority of the male population.
The overwhelming majority of all the right-wing men I’ve ever met have been a thousand times more miserable, angry, and bottled up than their left counterparts. The right wing inherently fosters that kind of existence with its rigidity, judgment, paranoia, and aggression.
Starting by removing the association between masculinity and being a bigot by changing male social behavior seems to be the logical first step. The change absolutely has to come from within. Starting by not tolerating it when your buddies say bigoted removed seems insignificant but is a huge step in the positive direction, and every small change counts.
Definitely!
There isn’t? Millions of liberal men can man just fine every day just out in public.
What are you missing?
So you don’t think there are any issues with how men are treated on the left?
As progressive as the left can be, men have been left behind and are still often expected to ‘just be a man’, while dealing with double standards and sometimes being treated like they’re inherently bad.
Edit: Copying what vzq has said to me for visibility, as this is the exact problem. Do I sound like the angry toddler in this discussion?
I believe these issues exist in some places in the world like the usa.
Personally as a cis man i dont experience these issues at all. I am more radical left leaning then my sisters.
The right just appear like some intolerant macho cult. They are the last people i would feel safe.
It has to be set though I recognize many fellow men do exhibit this weird macho psychology as well as laziness and illusion that they somehow know me or what i want. I never consider that to have political grounds.
If i have a choice to interact with either sex i am Biased to chose the women because i feel like there actually perceive and speak to me as individual rather then pretending i am their best friend cardboard cutout.
In my experience women are more honest as sales people and more helpfull as a frontdesk clerk. This is bias and exceptions exist. I myself am an exceptions. Statistical perception though…
I haven’t heard another guy talk about other dudes assuming you are just like them/same politics etc, but its something I’ve experienced a lot. I often have to break the news I’m not a safe space for whatever bs they are spewing.
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How exactly are men treated by the left? Perhaps you can give some examples so people understand what your problem is.
No, I honestly do not. I do my level best to treat everyone as a person and when I mess up I apologize and try and do better. That works pretty well.
If you are treated like you are inherently bad, you may be not as good as you think you are.
Edit: nice edit man. Totally not what an angry toddler would do.
Ah, blame the victim. Men get treated a certain way so it must be their fault…
There’s no victim here. Just a guy with “feelings”.
Ahh, its you. You’re the problem.
Again, just disregarding how men feel, where does that get us?
I absolutely do not act in the way that men are accused of, but blanket statements about “MeN BaD” are so frequent and widely accepted, and it’s just ignored or even praised.
Can you give a more precise example? I hope you do not mean individuals who write stuff online. In what way do left oriented organisations treat all men like they are bad?
Thanks for proving their point lol
You just flipped blame on the individual without even attempting to understand anything about them.
I know what they type. They are responsible for that at least, aren’t they?
Thanks for proving my point, what have I said that’s bad?
I want to be treated fairly and based on how I act, and yet I don’t get that.
You’ve tried to tell me that I do act like that, despite the fact you have absolutely nothing to back that up… The exact problem.
You are being treated based on how act. You act like a spoiled toddler that thinks he’s owed some consideration by strangers.
Okay, you’re obviously just looking for an argument at this point.
I’m not your enemy, I just ask that you reflect on what I’ve said. You don’t have to, but being open minded and showing compassion are supposedly the cornerstone of the left.
Holy removed you are so toxic.
That is true, absolutely. And one must not diminish the situation of women under the patriarchy by any means.
Unfortunately, the patriarchy damages all of us in different ways. That does not contradict feminism but, in my estimation, completes the view of the patriarchy, it’s effects, and how we perpetuate it generation after generation. I think if we wish to be anti-sexist and pro-feminist and ever hope to abolish the patriarchy, we must understand it as fully as possible.
If you care to explore the topic further, “The Will to Change” by Bell Hooks might be worth a read.
What is a liberal space for men? That means nothing.
Liberal, as in, believing in liberty. Freedom. How many mens spaces do you know of, where a man is completely free to open up, with full liberty and freedom from immediate consequences, about feelings they may have inside of them?
There’s actually not a lot. It’s a reflection of masculine indoctrination, where men in many places are made to feel like they almost need to be ready to become a soldier at any moment. Guarded, careful. It’s no good, unless your country is actually at war.
Are you implying liberal spaces deal with more toxic masculinity? Because that’s sounds more like conservative spaces to me. In my experience men are much more welcome to be vulnerable and talk about their feelings in liberal spaces. If you can’t find liberal spaces “where a man is completely free to open up, with full liberty and freedom from immediate consequences” I can’t help but wonder if perhaps you and your options are the intolerant ones. Tolerance can not support intolerance and liberal spaces can and should reject intolerance.
I’ve certainly seen my share of crappy behavior (up and including sexual assault unfortunately) in supposedly liberal and leftist spaces.
I don’t compare because I don’t hang out with conservatives , but every instance is one too many.
No, it is specifically illiberal spaces that encourage more toxic masculinity, in a bit of a cycle. While the space itself may be extremely liberal and rules-free, a local culture can take over and enforce those same toxic norms in place of any set of rules. And frequently does. While the space may be ostensibly liberal, in effect it is not, due to the behavior of its community.
This is the majority of mens spaces, unfortunately. Online anyway.
Only place I feel that way is at a gay bar. But I’m gay and live in Texas. I don’t think I’m the reason for the spike.
Lemmy is pretty good, for the most part. Depends which community of course, decentralized and only loosely controlled and all.
This thread proves the opposite.
Lemmy is a big place. You think anywhere online is going to be perfect like your picture of heaven or something? Get real.
This is going to be probably my single biggest cultural gripe with Lemmy. Lemmy (and leftist instances) as a leftist space is fine with ostracising men’s rights because feminists maliciously club it with redpillers/incels. I have been warned, ostracised, handed over multiple temp bans for “misogyny” which was merely criticising the hypocrisy of women and feminists. I never hated women, never dumped on women’s rights, always try to talk about equal treatment of men just like women and so on. And this made me conclude only one thing – to ignore and desert internet leftist social culture, if they are going to pile on all men. Not gonna get bluepilled in the name of avoiding redpill.
I read through some of your comment history and found this comment chain which I think is what you’re referring to here.
Even if you say you don’t hate women, it’s pretty clear you don’t like a certain kind of women, and don’t make much of a distinction between them and everyone else.
Wouldn’t it be the truly masculine thing to do if you just didn’t take all of the accusations of toxic masculinity to heart? Shouldn’t be be using your calm, resilient, less hysterical intellect to try to understand just why so many people seem to have a problem with what you’re saying or how you’re saying it? Don’t you want to have the ability to withstand life’s hardships without resorting to insecurity (worrying about perceived threats to men’s rights) or abusive behaviours (assigning traits to a group for the actions of individuals)? I don’t want to imply men aren’t allowed to complain or have problems, but it seems you’re either betraying your ideals for what a man should be, or are trying to hold all men to an unrealistic standard.
As far as I can tell, this paragraph is about all the actual men’s rights issues you’re talking about:
which is mostly about double standards, unless you just really want to interact with children, flirt with women in public, and not feel pressured to take certain jobs. Unless your idea of a leftist is someone like Bill Maher, I’m pretty sure most leftists would be pro-(mental) healthcare, pro- equality under the law, pro-union/workplace safety, anti-pedophilia, and generally anti-war.
I never delete my comments and let the world see, so that was smart. Appreciated.
No, masculinity being about resilience does not mean you just sit silently while people run towards you with axe and hammer. You can absolutely defend yourself and when cornered, attack when necessary. Masculine resilience does not mean you become this statue that remains so even if birds come and poop in the mouth. Eventually you will grab one bird by the neck.
Masculinity is not toxic. Behaviours are toxic, and they are not attached to masculinity exclusively. Femininity also has toxic behaviours if masculinity does. This is illogical western feminist propaganda and absolutely serves to accomplish the unspoken goal of getting “revenge” on men. Women have always been privileged in different ways than men have. It just so happens men focused on money (key form of capital) and ended up as being more advantageous. Men also have biological advantages that favour them over women.
There are agendas being pushed on the left, exactly in similar ways to the incel/redpill agendas, and I find all of them incredibly delusional and harmful to society. I love a lot of Jubilee’s Middle Ground debates on issues related to this topic, which pit leftists, centrist liberals and conservatives against each other.
My commentary is a little rough, little crude, but the meaning can be derived just fine if the context of current society is complemented. People (not you) can find semantic faults but those are not intended, and I think it can be seen I do not have ill intentions of pushing redpill bullremoved onto people. I was even being labelled (Jordan) Petersonian by some person despite insisting I have never pushed his conservative talking points or wanted to.
I have never said this, but I am
a
REDACTED
and leftists disgust me with their treatment of men, just as much as toxic redpillers and rightwingers do. I have encountered radical feminists wanting genocide of men, men being called male (animal implication), hand signs for dick size, feminists saying “all men bad/die” and “men are not our responsibility”, feminists faking boys locker room chats to gain online attention and harass men, and so on, so I have zero faith in anyone, leftists or rightists. And since reactionary leftists/rightists remain terminally online and amplify their bullremoved, its best to go Stoic.
Grabbing the bird by the neck would probably count as an abusive behavior, the second half of your definition of masculinity. You’re very quick to compare whatever treatment you’ve received (I haven’t really seen anything) to physical violence, which probably feeds into why a lot of people you interact with come off as so hostile to you and your beliefs.
It wasn’t all that long ago that women gained the right to vote, so it should be pretty obvious that women had fewer privileges than men just 100 years ago. Time marches on, and things are more equal now, but there’s still a measurable difference in pay by gender just for an example.
I try not to listen to Jordan Peterson, but if you’re saying things in line with his general philosophy, it doesn’t really matter whether or not you want to be pushing his talking points or if you even know you’re doing it. I can’t say for sure you are, but I would generally associate this kind of “women are actually more privileged then men” talk as at least similar.
You meet people that say dumb and hurtful things all the time. My own grandfather once told me that immigrants dying while trying to cross the border was a good thing because it would send a message to others that they aren’t welcome and they shouldn’t try to come. But that doesn’t mean you always need to take them seriously and apply the absolute worst things you’ve heard to a larger group of (mostly unrelated) people. But also, are these “locker room chats” the harmless kind, or the fantasizing/reminiscing about sexual assault kind?
That has nothing to do with spaces. It’s toxic masculinity. And you combat that by being the change you want to see.
Even if there was a space like that, toxic masculinity would ruin it if it wasn’t addressed. But you might just be looking for group therapy.
Men will blame anything else for their problems before ever admitting that toxic masculinity might be the cause of their problems
So, spaces that encourage toxic masculinity do exist, and they are fully aware of their ruination. See: 4chan.org.
edit: I see some of the confusion here, since 4chan is seemingly liberal, due to having no formal rules. However, that is an illusion. A man is not actually free to say anything they like without consequences there. It’s just that the norms will be enforced by the community, instead of any kind of authority. This is not actual liberty and freedom, simply indoctrination cloaked in an illusion of freedom.
Real freedom would allow a man to express something like sympathy, or being against gamergate, and express that opinion in peace. The reality of such spaces does not actually permit this.
It seems liberal and free, but in effect it is not. This is similar to how Trump seems to be strong sometimes, but in reality is weak and cowardly. Toxic masculinity loves its illusions.
Toxic masculinity does not exist. If it does, toxic femininity also exists and is just as abundant. If you cannot acknowledge this, you have no right to badmouth masculinity as toxic.
Lol.
sounds more like what would happen at a conservative place to me.
I feel you man, I know people that grew up in environments like that, and if you are not temperamentally suited for them they will chew you up.
I found it got a lot better when I moved out on my own and could choose who I spent time and who I did not. But not everyone can do that when they need the most.
The only places I have been close to that are “toxic” male places. All boys clubs, drinking clubs, rugby clubs.
But women see them as toxic and label then like that. But if you talk to them you get more toxic than from these clubs they aren’t a part of that tell you how horrible they are.
So, I’m not a woman, nor am I overly feminine, and I still call out toxic bullremoved when I see it. If you want to say the problem is women/feminists though, fine whatever, if we cleaned up our own removed first, we might be able to make that stick. But when we’re bastards and they’re bitches, and we complain, we’re kinda the removeded up ones, y’know? Since we were supposed to be strong in the first place.
Unless you just think life is removed and everyone should get used to it. Then, just move to Russia or something, for everyone’s sake.
Can you give a few examples of what men can’t say or do completely freely in liberal places?
Sure. Go over into 4chan and try any behavior they would describe as “white knighting” or “simping”. You will rapidly experience some social consequences intended to dissuade that behavior.
Experiencing social consequences for saying something people disagree with is not infringing on your freedom. Unless they band together and try to go further than simply not liking what you have to say, how is that stopping men from saying their opinion on 4chan?
Independently, I wouldn’t call 4chan a liberal place. As far as I know, 4chan started and participated in activities in the past that go far beyond simply not liking an opinion. They doxxed, harassed and threatened people, among other things. And with support from many people on that platform.
Liberal in the traditional sense, as in, believing in liberty, I’m being technical. Not meaning “leftist” the way the word has been rebranded by right-leaners. So, their adoption of “no rules” is ultra-liberal, or libertarian perhaps.
And all social consequences are social. Drawing a distinction between legal and social is arbitrary. Suffering is suffering, and employing it to control dissenting voices is fundamentally illiberal. If you can prevent certain messages from appearing on your platform, you have successfully executed a form of control.
Thus, their ultra-liberty is an illusion. It’s not real.
Liberal narratives paint men as aggressive rapists at worst, and toxic manipulative sociopath at best. Liberal narratives onstantly evoke “tHe pATriArcHy” and “tOxic mAsCuLinity” hiding misandry behind pseudointellectualism
‘Toxic masculinity’ is referring specifically to masculinity that is toxic. It’s not referring to masculinity as a whole as toxic.
Pushes in glasses “uuum ackshually that’s not what it means”
Yeah no removed, tell that to the people on social media where the majority of popular discord takes place. And pretending that the meaning of the two isn’t obfuscated is disingenuous. At the end of the day it’s all antipositivists theory garbage that reads more like a political treatise than academic study.
Exactly. Feminist terminology like “toxic masculinity” and “patriarchy” has been very carefully chosen to be misandrist enough to result in the intended widespread popular demonization of men that we’ve seen over the past few decades, while also giving feminists enough deniability to gaslight with “that’s not what the terms ackchually mean though”.
The misandry is a feature, not a bug.
Bingo
Brosif, calling a discussion of the patriarchy misandry makes it clear you don’t know what the patriarchy even is. It hurts everyone.
This is the pseudointellectualism I’m talking about. “You don’t actually understand what it ACTUALLY means” while the meanings are clearly obfuscated for the layperson.
Brosef, the term “patriarchy” itself is (and has always been) intentionally misleading and inherently misandrist, and has played a huge role in the modern demonization of men as a result. The “academic definition” of the term is irrelevant, as the (fully intended) real world negative consequences of the term for men in the cultural zeitgeist have been systemic and pervasive, as we can see all over this thread.
No
While those are some examples of “liberal narratives”, there’s also a very real “men are harmed by the patriarchy too” narrative.
I see the problem you see and I agree with you about it, it’s just the narratives you’ve described aren’t the only liberal narratives.
That whole men are hurt by the patriarcy too is a cop-out when people get called out on their bullremoved ideology
I mean, they/we also could create these spaces for us, much in the same way women did (and many other groups). And of course it’s easier to fall for reactionary groups when liberal groups are less visible, but it’s still a decision to follow their bullremoved.
Shoutout to !mensliberation@lemmy.ca (and similar spaces)
We had these spaces, they were accused of sexism, and forced to open up to everyone, where the female spaces stayed all female. Boyscouts and Girlscouts comes to mind as an example.
The issue is that these spaces are often prime trolling grounds, and you end up having the same discussions over and over until the honest posters move on and only trolls are left.
Which is why the heavily moderated menslib sub on Reddit was so great, because they didn’t put up with that BS.
Agreed. Unfortunately, Lemmy has both design choices and cultural issues that make running heavily moderated communities essentially impossible.
It would be great if there was mens clubs to just hang out, drink, talk, play games things like that. In fact there was and they were HUGE but men aren’t allowed them now.
It would be great if boys could have that. Almost like a girls scouts but for boys.
As soon as men try to organize and speak out we get called sexist. If men wanted to start a men only club like women are allowed they would be forced to let women in. Just look at the boy scouts (ignoring the pedophiles) they were forced to allow girls but the girl scouts don’t have to allow boys. Males can’t have anything male only.
That’s simply not true. We have at least one counselling centre in our city that is “boys/young men only” and several “men only” self help groups. I’ve never heard them being called sexist, on the contrary people generally agree that this is a good thing and we need more of this. And they are certainly not forced to include other genders.
There are obviously not enough initiatives like these. But a blanket statement like yours is false and if you make the claim that men are regularly getting called out as sexist for forming liberal safe spaces you should provide some sources (I’m not denying that it happens, it’s just not something I’ve experienced).
The goal of boy scouts wasn’t to provide a safe space to explore gender identity or emotions or anything like that. There was no reason to exclude other genders.
Is that the goal of girl scouts, though?
I don’t think so.
What are you trying to say? I don’t know that much about Scouting in the U.S. At least in Germany we didn’t have this gender divide in scouting, but as GSUSA were founded after the BSA I suspect that their goal was to provide scouting for girls because they couldn’t join BSA.
The other guy said men can’t have man-only spaces, referring to Boy Scouts in contrast to Girl Scouts, and you said that Boy Scouts isn’t supposed to be a safe space to explore gender identity or emotions. If Girl Scouts isn’t that kind of thing either, then that sounds like you think men only get to have that kind of man-only space, while women can have whatever.
As a man, if the only man-only spaces available were about gender identity or emotions, I’d probably go to neither. The former because I’m fully comfortable as a man (and the use of the term “gender identity” there implies it’s more for trans people,) and the latter because I don’t have significant issues with my emotions. Frankly, I don’t really mind that most of the clubs and events that interest me are co-ed, but if there was a recurring women-only Minecraft party or something and there was never one for men, I’d be upset about that.
I was saying we could create the missing liberal spaces ourselves. ThePantser said we couldn’t because we’re being called out as sexist when we do that. The only example for that being “boy scouts” which I suppose means BSA, an organization with massive sexual abuse and bullying problems (according to Wikipedia). No idea how they are supposed to be “liberal”.
Whether the girl scouts accept other genders or not has no relevance for that argument. And if it would be fair for them to do that is a completely different discussion because girls are hit by sexism in a completely different way than boys.
No, it doesn’t.
And again you are completely ignoring any arguments about why these spaces might make sense.
Women get told they need there own spaces for mental health, women’s issues, to have women’s chat.
Men aren’t allowed those things. They are told they never open up, they are toxic they shouldn’t be acting x,y,z and they should be more like girls.
What you are saying is when all thr fallout occurs then they get help. You are fixing a problem when their could be a solution before it becomes a problem.
This is it.
Men underperform in things like education and work.
Who gets all the help? Women.
There is so much toxic feminism that doesn’t get attention. A male only shelter got shut down by me because the feminists protested so much until it got shut down.
Surely this is intersectional though right? Not all men are the same or have the same experience of political issues. I can see how straight white cis men might feel like these spaces aren’t for them. But queer men might feel differently about this. Black men also.
Also if you feel like existing spaces aren’t for you, then free to create your own spaces. There’s nothing holding you back.
Nearly all leftist spaces welcome straight white cis men. Anti-feminists are not welcome.
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Counterpoint - men need to be less hung up on gender.
There’s plenty of liberal spaces for people even if not exclusively for men.
As a guy, I don’t need a sign outside saying “Open for men” to know I can go into a store, just “Open” suffices.
While there are aspects of my life that are informed by my biology and its social construct, it’s one of the least defining aspects of who I am as a person. I don’t need it specially recognized.
I’d much rather live in a world where there’s spaces for “people who like RPGs and fantasy” or “people who like tech” over “people who identify as male.” I have a ton in common with the former two, irrespective of gender identities, and very little in common with the latter other than fairly superficial things.
“Hey, pee standing up? Me too! We have so much in common we should be friends. Oh, you want to meet up at the bar to watch the latest hockey game? Yeah, that sounds…fun…”
The very idea of a “liberal space for men” is antithetical to my sense of liberalism. We should be liberated from arbitrary notions of identity, not reinforced into them.