jointhefediverse.net seems to be a commonly linked resource for directing people to join the Fediverse.
Curiously, it does not list Lemmy under the list of Reddit alternatives. Their GitHub README explains why.
Previous relevant discussion: https://lemmy.ml/post/78808
This is so stupid. Did everyone stop using ballpoint pens because the inventor was a nazi? No.
but… I wouldn’t drive a Tesla because of Elon Musk.
But by buying a tesla youre giving elon money and promoting his product which is much more closely tied to his views than lemmy is to the devs views.
Ballpoint pens don’t spread nazi propaganda. I don’t know where you thought this was going.
Could you, like, maybe post the explanation we’re supposed to be discussing for context instead of making us go search for it?
Why was Lemmy removed from the list of fediverse alternatives?
Lemmy was removed due to:
- reports of how the developers handle certain types of content (post removed, view an incomplete archive)
- the behavior of its creator
- how the sotware itself handles users’ privacy.
Keep in mind that software is by no means “neutral”. The people who make it make decisions about how it works based on their beliefs and goals. That’s why, for example, you can’t quote posts on Mastodon (at least for now), but you can do so on other fediverse platforms.
Thanks! Damn, maybe I should move to Mbin. Anyone know if there’s a good mobile client for it?
The reasoning they give is ludicrous. That’s idiotic as saying because someone put up a pedophile website, Apache is the devil. Even if Apache were built by NAMBLA, if it’s opensource and doesn’t randomly insert pictures of naked kids into your website, how does the developer matter to the product?
If Nambla owned Apache, I think Apache should be taken from Nambla.
“I’m gonna stop using GNU/Linux because I don’t like Richard Stallman”
It’s valid to dislike the devs (I disagree, I’ve found them nothing but courteous, and have read their posts with interest), but it’s ridiculous to exclude their software from this list.
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Hmmmm, could it be the totalitarian-fellating developers? 🤔
It’s just a random person that registered a domain. Be the change you want to see and make your own?
I mean, personally I don’t disagree with that random person 😂
hm, raddle.me / postmill looks promising though. is it federated at all? i haven’t dived into the code enough yet but i’d love it as an alternative.
Seems very quiet: https://raddle.me/new
Valid concern imo, Dev’s are just dickheads
No, they aren’t.
So you take it out on their projects ? Coward
it’s complaints about the developer (which are valid) who also runs lemmy.ml.
How much effort do you think Meta, Twitter, and Reddit put into getting open social media people to fight against themselves?
Very little
They can do whatever removed they want with their instance and believe whatever they want. The software they make provably doesn’t have any more biases than any other software. As long as that’s the case, I’m fine.
Maybe there’s something in the codebase that sends all our data to North Korea… who knows.
We do, because it’s open source
Have you read all the code though? Everyone assumes that somebody else will read every single file of the source code, and understand it all. Malicious code can be obfuscated.
Yeah, but it’s guilt by association. Think about how X is now. Its owner is an asshole, and that hurts the platform regardless of how many cool people use it.
X is under total control of that person. As long as the lemmy source adheres to fediverse principles, this developer can believe whatever they want and run their instance however they want, and no one else has to care. If his beliefs starts affecting the lemmy source, it’s always an option to fork.
If you exclude a branch of the fediverse because of one bad instance, you’re missing the point of the fediverse.
And you’re missing the point of my point.
If people who don’t already know how lemmy is run, are curious and read that removed and think the owner/operator of lemmy is a huge douchebag tankie that deletes/bans everything he doesn’t like… it bodes poorly for new people coming to lemmy.
So therefore- the rest of us are guilty as a result of association with the aforementioned douchebag.
Lemmy was removed due to:
- reports of how the developers handle certain types of content (post removed, view an incomplete archive)
- the behavior of its creator
- how the sotware itself handles users’ privacy.
All valid concerns.
No, they’re not.
how the developers handle certain types of content
Doesn’t matter if you stay away from .ml.
the behavior of its creator
Kind of valid, but open source and open license negates a lot of that.
how the sotware itself handles users’ privacy.
You think anything else on the Fediverse is better? When you post something publicly, it’s public. Doesn’t really matter what the software does. If you don’t have End to End encryption, it’s not private.
Doesn’t matter if you stay away from .ml.
And they are. They have delisted Lemmy as a recommendation.
Kind of valid, but open source and open license negates a lot of that.
It’s really bad PR. I don’t recommend Lemmy to people because of this removed.
You think anything else on the Fediverse is better?
If their servers delete content you want deleted, yes.
If their servers delete content you want deleted, yes.
It’s the case for Lemmy
Unfortunately there was some miscommunication in this issue and we failed to get to the root cause. In fact the Lemmy backend has an option to delete all content when an account is deleted. This used to be the default behaviour but was changed in 0.19 so you need to set a parameter delete_content. We failed to add a checkbox for this parameter to lemmy-ui.
However the checkbox is added now in #2385 and will be included in the next Lemmy release. Other frontends and clients may also need to adjust the delete_account api call.
https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy-ui/issues/2384#issuecomment-1978857727
Gotcha.
No they’re not, go back to school & relearn what FediVerse is
Point 1 and 2 really need to be addressed.
It would be so much better if lemmy wasn’t developed by genocide white-washing tankies.
https://piefed.social/ is catching up
Any way to migrate a self hosted lemmy instance to piefed?
No, it’s not geared up for that. There’s a platform called sublinks where the intention is to be initially compatible enough with Lemmy that it can be a drop-in replacement, but they haven’t released anything yet.
Oh interesting, thanks for sharing!
just run both!
Python based: I was looking for that
Yeah, I don’t expect it to scale well. Certainly not as well as Rust.
In terms of incoming federation, PieFed sites are dealing with as much activity as any general Lemmy instance. It’s not happened yet, but I suppose it’s possible that problems will become apparent if the amount of local users gets over a certain size. A limit on the amount of users per instance isn’t necessarily a bad thing though (it’s cheap, and hopefully easy enough, for someone to spin up another one).
What’s going to cause problems? Python, the db, redis or other?
It uses postgres for the DB - I think that and redis are designed to operate at very large scales, so it wouldn’t be them.
My guess would be that it’s something in the interpreted nature of Python - this seems to be why a familiar dismissal of PieFed is a concern about how it will scale.
That said, this site shows that Python is the most popular language for Fediverse apps (just), the likes of Mastodon are written in another interpreted language (Ruby), and I think there are more big websites running Python (with Django or Flask) than people realise. So I don’t know, really, I’m just following other people’s lead on this. I don’t imagine that any problems would be insurmountable though: an admin could restrict the amount of signups, or if new users mean a few more donations, they could just throw money at the problem (more cycles for one server, or splitting up tasks across multiple servers).
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Have you checked how muh software do you use that is enabled by capitalism?
You should ask it on lemmygrad.ml :D
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SDF_Public_Access_Unix_System
wow that’s interesting :D
SDF is pretty rad.
Yee
Excuse me?
The linked post given on the second point is a bit flimsy. It’s basically saying that if you use evidence published by a person with removedty views, you must have them too. To me, that’s absurd as claiming that referencing FBI statistics makes someone a federal agent.
I hate it when people try to gatekeep like this. I don’t need to be handheld. If there’s a Fediverse alternative to something and it mostly works, it should be on the website. Anything less is not useful at best.
Edit: I say this as someone who has historically criticized the behavior of the devs as well as multiple Lemmy communities BTW.
I agree 100% with this. The developers or the operators of lemmy.ml may be assholes, but the beauty of decentralization is I can simply not use their instance. I do not. Thus, while a warning label is necessary, I think more good is done by making people aware of the alternative to Reddit than by sweeping the whole thing under the rug.
As for user privacy, I’m not sure Lemmy is any worse than any other Fediverse app. There were a couple of bad things like being unable to delete a hosted image, but that has been fixed. Once again, warning label, not rug sweep.
To me the first one is an instance problem (ml, hexbear?), and not a lemmy problem. It has looked like they’ve been trying to separate the two as much as possible.
Unfortunately, .ml is a default instance and the main devs instance, what happens there reflects on all of us
Default where?
I don’t see it on that page. Going to “See all servers” lists “lemmy.ml” at a random position in the list. Looking at “Join a server” and using “Generic” or “All topics” also lists it in a random position. Am I missing something?
If you use “Most active”, it will shows up after lemm.ee and the other big instances. So not default, but would still be recommended to new joiners
Well to me that doesn’t fit the “it’s default” description.
While looking at that, I couldn’t see lemmy.world on that page. I found that join-lemmy.org now excludes instances with >30% user share in order to dampen centralisation. Which makes sense I guess.
It was made very clear from the start that .ml was not meant to be a ‘default instance’.
Too bad for all of us that it is though.
But lemmy.ml isn’t the most active, nor does it host the most active communities
If anything is too bad, it’s .world being so prominent.
Half this comm’s activity is spreading FUD about the platform and being a gathering place for all the people developing their alternatives to huddle and advertise those.
How was it default? I’ve been here for years and in all that time, it was never default. It was one of the most popular, and the most widely shared, but that’s not the same at all.
To me, the only solution to this is to do a hard fork. Take the code (It’s AGPL), rename it if Lemmy is trademarked, and encourage admins to use it and contributors to target it. Maybe start a non-profit or LLC while we’re at it.
Good luck finding Rust devs interested in link aggregators. That fork would probably fall behind, and people would switch back to Lemmy as they keep delivering features.
Mbin and Piefed use more popular languages and haven’t caught up yet
Instead of trying to fork, maybe we try and go the Gotosocial way and make a MVP smol version. Something that can house 10 or so users. People can spin up whatever they want.
Honestly what I wouldnt give for a reddit theme on mastodon that uses their hashtags as the communities themselves. That would be cool in my opinion.
Sublinks is doing a rewrite
To be honest, at this point forking the jointhefediverse website would probably be easier
This seems like the better idea and way easier lol.
What is the issue with user privacy? These do not sound like valid concerns to me.
This is all quite old drama, and the issue itself is fixed now, but at one point someone kicked off about how if you uploaded a picture to Lemmy, there was no easy way to delete it (you could delete your post, but the image would still be there at whatever URL was created for it, and it wasn’t even that easy for admins to find and remove it) - so I’m guessing that it stems from that.
Its older than that, and still ongoing. The devs doubled down on how GDPR (and user data privacy rights in general) do not matter to them
Source? I did a cursory search for “GDPR” on the GitHub issues and can’t find anything like that.
Anyway, this seems to be their more recent stance:
For the future, any GDPR compliance advice needs to come from a lawyer, not from random non-lawyers interpreting what they think is correct.
https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/4540#issuecomment-2018920191
I dont know what you mean. If you search for GDPR (including closed tickets) in both the Lemmy and lemmy-ui repos, you’ll see lots of bugs that make running Lemmy illegal for instance admins.
Here’s one particularly egregious example
https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy-ui/issues/2384#issuecomment-1978679289
Uhh… The other dev. Yeah, he’s obviously wrong.
He admitted it at the end of the ticket
Unfortunately there was some miscommunication in this issue and we failed to get to the root cause. In fact the Lemmy backend has an option to delete all content when an account is deleted. This used to be the default behaviour but was changed in 0.19 so you need to set a parameter delete_content. We failed to add a checkbox for this parameter to lemmy-ui.
However the checkbox is added now in #2385 and will be included in the next Lemmy release. Other frontends and clients may also need to adjust the delete_account api call.
That’s pretty much it
Wait, what? Can you elaborate?
See the other comment
it’s federated. It’s the only way it can work. Everything still on that ist must suffer from the same thing. Federation means handing stuff to someone else. Once that’s done, it’s out of your hands forever.
Once that’s done, it’s out of your hands forever.
Correct but fedi is supposed to be the public forum of the future.
Social media worked the same… you handed your removed posts to faceberg or sundar the creep, do people think when they deleted their “creation” it was removed?
That cant be the issue because the site is called joinfediverse and everything it lists is federated.
Yeah, seems like it’s just how ActivityPub works / how federated networks are.
Recently came across this very interesting writeup: https://gitlab.com/spritely/ocappub/blob/master/README.org (via https://social.coop/@cwebber/113639985634239856)
No that cant be why they do not list lemmy. The other services there federate in the same way.
These concerns, and more, are why just today, during a conversation with some friends looking to get off traditional social media, I advised them to join pixelfed, peer tube, mastodon, and loops, but suggested they strictly avoid Lemmy.
The communities aren’t right for anyone who isn’t seeking something exactly like Lemmy or leftie-Reddit-lite. I don’t even really like it here all that much anymore. Not the content; the interactions… across all my accounts… even joining “nicer” spaces is not a particularly nice or pleasant experience, plus the more interested is a woman, and Lemmy is a horrible sausagefest echo chamber not at all suited to a normal average woman person who isn’t techie. I’m techie, so I’m used to the vibe, but for your average cis-woman, Lemmy is a very very bad fit.
Bring on the downvotes if you like (the echo-chamber anti-voice sentiment is part of why people shouldn’t be recommended this platform, after all) but these are legit concerns for people who may want to join, and those of us already here can and do steer people elsewhere as a result.
Lemmy is a horrible sausagefest echo chamber not at all suited to a normal average woman person who isn’t techie.
Far be it from me to point out this is exactly how reddit started.
The foundational promise of lemmy and the fediverse writ large is freedom from proprietary software and closed-protocols; the kind of people who are going to be interested in seeking out those types of alternatives are going to gravitate toward techy men.
It takes time for new social media sites to fan outward from their initial adopters, that’s just how it goes.
Fair points, to be honest. We can all do better.
Same honestly. I never discussed politics on Reddit, but it’s all the content that’s here. Partly why I don’t recommend it to anyone i know who uses Reddit. Most content just isn’t normie-friendly here.
It’s so depressing and aggressive, honestly. I can’t do that to my friends who don’t do that already.
Have you been on Reddit lately? It’s insanely depressing and aggressive, too. Even more so in my opinion. I used to be reddit addicted but it’s so bot infested, mean-spirited, and kind of vapid and shallow that I get bored after the first page or two. Lemmy still has a long way to go but I’ve been having more fun and interesting conversations on here.
Wait wait…what’s that last one?
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This is why I’m looking forward to Sublinks launching.
Piefed is more promosing. Sublinks has been on hold for a while now
Nutomic and Dessalines may be tankies, but they’re our tankies
Not wrong lol. I dislike their behavior but still contribute code to lemmy.
Same, I am very opposed to their views, but they make this platform, so I respect them as FOSS developers
And the day that something bad in general about the code can be said? That’s when developers fork. It means something different to us.
They may be your tankis, but they sure arent our tankies.
They can removed right off
Why don’t you first?
As soon as Sublinks is live I will.
Lemmy is making the same mistake as Reddit, and they’ll be an exodus when we have an alternative
As soon as Sublinks is live I will.
https://piefed.social/ is more promising, and almost there except mobile apps. Feel free to try it out.
They are literally developing the platform we are on. Sure, I don’t agree with their opinion at all, but it doesn’t mean I can’t respect their work.
Doing a pretty removed job at it.
I used to use reddit. Those devs made the same mistake, and I dont respect either.
Then develop it yourself.
Can you elaborate on what you mean?
Not listening to to community. We are the content creators on reddit. Reddit should have done as we asked. They threw us under the bus.
Lemmy devs dont listen to their community. Instance admins point out serious legal issues regarding moderation, and they say they don’t fix those bugs because user privacy doesn’t matter.
He admitted it he was wrong at the end of the ticket and fixed accordingly: https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy-ui/issues/2384#issuecomment-1978857727
Unfortunately there was some miscommunication in this issue and we failed to get to the root cause. In fact the Lemmy backend has an option to delete all content when an account is deleted. This used to be the default behaviour but was changed in 0.19 so you need to set a parameter delete_content. We failed to add a checkbox for this parameter to lemmy-ui.
However the checkbox is added now in #2385 and will be included in the next Lemmy release. Other frontends and clients may also need to adjust the delete_account api call.
Reddit was literally co-founded by Aaron Swartz (RIP): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz
😂💯
Good way to phrase it ha ha
It has mbin and piefed on the list, so it’s not harming the network at all. If anything it’s more healthy with more platforms rather than just ml and world. It’s one site directing people to the fedi, I’m not butthurt about it
It’s almost certainly because of the tankie factory that is .ml and the fact that it’s admins are all hard core tankies (including the main dev! And ofc the whole infamous Nutomic transphobe incident)
Coupled with the fact that a few of the biggest communities are on .ml does not bode well.
That’s why I keep calling for a general boycott against posting content or comments on .ml communities.
.ml doesn’t want growth, they want a tankie echo chamber, if anybody wants to actually see Lemmy grow at a healthy pace it starts with shuning the hostile tankies and their instances.
I’ve said it before, but I joined this instance when Reddit closed the api and the only time I see “tankie” stuff is when someone mentions how rampant it is on this instance, but not on the instance itself. I guess I subscribe to non-tankie content (all across the fediverse and not only this instance).
Coupled with the fact that a few of the biggest communities are on .ml does not bode well.
https://lemmyverse.net/communities?order=active_month
- 0 community in the top 10
- 2 communities in the top 20
That’s why I keep calling for a general boycott against posting content or comments on .ml communities.
!linux@programming.dev is a good alternative to !linux@lemmy.ml
Well I was going by subscriber count, but good to know that it’s not as bleak going by (probably more accurate metric to go by) MAUs, but still memes@lemmy.ml is #10 in the top 10
For memes either !memes@lemmy.world or !memes@sopuli.xyz is a good alternative to memes@lemmy.ml
Isn’t number 10 !politics@lemmy.world ?
Also, by the active numbers metrics, those other memes communities definitely took over the ml one
Oh it is, ig I miscounted lol
Still many top tech communities (in their niche) are on ML. Open source, Linux, Privacy, Raspberry Pi, Firefox come to mind.
Several hexbear communities are also in the top 50.
I mentioned l !linux@programming.dev already
The alternatives are there, most of the people just don’t seem to care enough to leave the .ml ones
Several hexbear communities are also in the top 50.
Are they? I see 2.6k monthly active users for !chapotraphouse@hexbear.net, which is definitely lower than top 50, seems more like 80 or 90, or even past 100 (currently on my phone, can’t really count accurately, and Lemmyverse doesn’t have row numbers)
I do use all the ML alternatives, but engagement is notably lower. I almost wish LW would just bite the bullet and defederate from ML.
Yeah, maybe more like top 100 for hexbear. I am on mobile too.
Yes, I guess for tech people the political stances are irrelevant, they just want the most active communities
Having access to the devs via !lemmy@lemmy.ml and !lemmy_support@lemmy.ml is probably why
I almost wish LW would just bite the bullet and defederate from ML.
I get the feeling that even if you got what you wanted, you would still complain about .ml
Right now, you could block .ml personally. Have you blocked .ml?
Blocking ML doesn’t block the users
I have not, no. There are still some technology communities that are only present on ML. Outside of those, I do not interact with ML.
And what’s with your prima donna attitude? What exactly is the problem with calling out an instance run by genocide white-washing tankie scum?
I almost wish LW would just bite the bullet and defederate from ML.
I really don’t understand why they won’t, they did it with lemmygrad and hexbear but with .ml they wanna take this kid glove approach. The best theory I got is they don’t want to because of the more active communities on there ig
Having access to the devs via !lemmy@lemmy.ml and !lemmy_support@lemmy.ml is probably why
Everyone should defederate from that toxic removedhole. It serves no purpose that isn’t duplicated elsewhere only without the heavy-handed admin/mod team.
sorry, but what does tankie mean?
Generally, those who praise authoritarian regimes who mask, or attempt to, themselves in the cloak of communism/socialism e.g. China or Russia and are SUPER anti-West (Parroting views of the China Russian regime)
Which comes with a whole host of removed takes, like Russia being justified in their invasion or even denying Tiennamen Square and definitely denying the China Uyghur genocide
Basically, they’ve gone so far left they’ve circled back into Right-wing authoritarianism
The Interceptjournalist Roane Carey identified the “key element in the tankie mindset [as] the simple-minded assumption that only the United States can be imperialist, and thus any country that opposes the U.S. must be supported.”
I think that’s a well done description.
oh i thought tankie means different here
Same, no idea… Tank wearing people? Lol
Make your own instance and defederate .ml or any of the other instances you hate. Go nuts! Show us how it’s done.
That’s why I keep calling for a general boycott against posting content or comments on .ml communities.
I mean…I joined that boycott months ago, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen you before this moment.
Bro. I just posted a meme about it 3 days ago
And I post from time to time about it, enough that some of the more prominent .ml users have started to take notice lmao
I’ve also been consistently for weeks now cross-posting a ton of fresh (non-tankie anyways) content to the relevant non-.ml communities, it’s like the bulk of my posts rn lol
That’s nice, thanks for your posts
I wrote this before
I spotted Dessalines posted literal propaganda on some community I joined
gotta be honest that does not sit well with me
Lemmy.world has literal propaganda, too.
They posted a Radio Free Asia article and banned anyone who pointed out it’s a government run CIA propaganda op. Even redditors know that’s propaganda lol.
It’s everywhere, you can’t avoid it, you just have to learn to be discerning, media critical, and look into sources.
Switch to Piefed or Mbin?
Yep. And note how the other mods/admins are almost always found commenting alongside them.
